by William P. Reaves
William P. Reaves was among the most prolific scholarly voices on alt.religion.asatru in the 2000s, posting detailed comparative mythological analyses of the Eddic sources throughout that decade. This essay, written in May 2007, addresses one of the central puzzles of Norse mythology: the apparent discrepancy between Snorri's Prose Edda, which names Odin's brothers Vili and Ve, and the Völuspá, which credits the creation of humanity to Odin, Hoenir, and Lodur. Drawing on Viktor Rydberg's nineteenth-century comparative scholarship and applying the principle of divine polynomy — the practice of naming gods by many names — Reaves argues that these are not separate traditions but the same figures under different names.
The essay is notable for its close reading of primary sources: Gylfaginning, Völuspá, and Lokasenna are quoted directly, the logical connections made explicit. Reaves also sketches a more speculative reconstruction, following Carla O'Harris, of Lodur as a renegade elf-founder possibly identical with Surt. The argument is careful to distinguish what the evidence supports from what remains conjectural. Posted to alt.religion.asatru — the principal English-language online gathering place for practitioners of Norse heathenry — this essay represents the kind of serious lay scholarship that flourished on Usenet in the years before academic mythology became widely accessible online.
Odin's brothers Vili and Ve are also known as Lodur and Hoenir. This is simple to prove, as Rydberg demonstrates.
"Odin's brothers, like himself, had many names. When Völuspá says that Odin, in the creation of man, was assisted by Hoenir and Lodur, and when the Younger Edda (Gylfaginning 9) says that, on this occasion, he was attended by his brothers, who just before (Gylfaginning 6) are called Ve and Vili, then these are only different names of the same powers. Hoenir and Lodur are Ve and Vili. It is a mistake to believe that Odin's brothers were mythical ghosts without characteristic qualities, and without prominent parts in the mythological events after the creation of the world and of man, in which we know they took an active part (Völuspá 4, 17, 18). The assumption that this was the case depends simply upon the fact that they have not been found mentioned among the Aesir, and that our records, when not investigated with proper thoroughness, and when the mythological synonymies have not been carefully examined, seem to have so little to say concerning them."
In Gylfaginning 6, Snorri says:
"The cow called Audumla...licked the ice-blocks, which were salty; and the first day that she licked the blocks, there came forth from the blocks in the evening a man's hair; the second day, a man's head; the third day the whole man was there. He is named Búri: he was fair of feature, great and mighty. He begat a son called Borr, who wedded the woman named Bestla, daughter of Bölthorn the giant; and they had three sons: one was Odin, the second Vili, the third Vé."
In Gylfaginning 9, Snorri says:
"When the sons of Borr were walking along the sea-strand, they found two trees, and took up the trees and shaped men of them: the first gave them spirit and life; the second, wit and feeling; the third, form, speech, hearing, and sight. They gave them clothing and names: the male was called Askr, and the female Embla, and of them was mankind begotten, which received a dwelling-place under Midgard. Next they made for themselves in the middle of the world a city which is called Ásgard; men call it Troy."
[Notice that Snorri identifies Asgard with the earthly city of Troy, proving that he misunderstood Grimnismal 29, 30, which places Asgard and Urd's well on opposite sides of the Bifrost bridge. Snorri places Asgard on Earth and Urd's well in the heavens, while Rydberg demonstrates that the proper heathen conception was that Asgard was located in the heavens and that Urd's well was located in Hel. The rainbow bridge, Bifrost, connects them. Thus all three wells and the roots of Yggdrasil are found underground, like the roots of all natural trees found in the north and the springs which feed them.]
Völuspá states:
Until there came three
mighty and benevolent
Æsir to the world
from their assembly.
They found on earth,
nearly powerless,
Ask and Embla,
void of destiny.Spirit they possessed not,
sense they had not,
blood nor motive powers,
nor goodly colour.
Spirit gave Odin,
sense gave Hoenir,
blood gave Lodur,
and goodly colour.
Snorri says that the Sons of Borr are named Odin, Vili and Ve. He obtained the names Vili and Ve from Lokasenna 26, which reads:
- Be thou silent, Frigg!
Thou art Fjörgyn's daughter,
and ever hast been fond of men,
since Ve and Vili, it is said,
thou, Vidrir's (Odin's) wife, didst
both to thy bosom take.
Vidrir is one of Odin's many names. Vili and Ve were no doubt chosen because they alliterate with this name. Vili means "will" and Ve means "holy."
Snorri informs us that the Sons of Borr were walking along the seastrand and found Ask and Embla. They made them human and gave them gifts. Völuspá 18, 19 informs us that Odin, Hoenir, and Lodur did this. Ergo, Odin (Vidrir), Vili and Ve, are Odin, Lodur, and Hoenir. The comparative method in action.
The Question of Scholarly Consensus
Some scholars agree with this, others choose to see them as varying traditions. When considering the validity of the latter view, consider that Snorri drew on Völuspá and Lokasenna for much of his information concerning the gods, and quotes both poems — and that these prose and poetic works all come from Iceland at relatively the same time. The gods in the lore are called by various names: Odin has 49 or more names, Thor is called Hlórridi, Véorr, Vingthor, and others; Freyja is called Mardoll, Vanadis, Throng, Menglad, and more; Frigg is called Hlín; Heimdall is called Rig. Thus, Vili and Ve probably had other names as well.
Scholars are so conditioned to see the myths as disjointed variants of common themes, and to accept whatever Snorri says as correct, that they cannot seem to see the obvious. For example, John Lindow in his Handbook of Norse Mythology says: "In his version of the creation of humans in Gylfaginning...Snorri says that the creators were the sons of Bor, and there is no reason to think that that group included Hoenir." The fact that Snorri paraphrases and quotes the entirety of Völuspá, and attributes the same act to Odin, Vili and Ve that Völuspá attributes to Odin, Hoenir, and Lodur, seems like reason enough.
It is also important to notice that Snorri seems to know very little about Hoenir, and next to nothing about Lodur, Vili, or Ve. He says in Gylfaginning that Hoenir was exchanged as a hostage with the Vanir for Njord (the story is elaborated in Heimskringla), and numbers him among the Aesir at Aegir's feast in Skáldskaparmál. There he also describes Hoenir as Odin's companion, the mud-king, and the long-legged — all of which seem to have been poetic kennings drawn from poetic sources. Hoenir appears in the poem Haustlöng cited by Snorri in a minor role, and accompanies Odin on his journey to see the dwarf Andvari. In a verse by Egil, cited in Skáldskaparmál, Odin is called Vili's brother; otherwise Vili, Ve and Lodur do not appear again. There seems to be a clear gap in Snorri's knowledge where Odin's brothers are concerned.
The Comparative Question
Can we assume that Odin's brothers were mythic ghosts, or is the fragmentary evidence the reason we (like Snorri) know so little about them? Your answer depends on your philosophical viewpoint. There is no "correct" answer. If we turn to other Indo-European mythologies for help, we find that in Greek mythology the sky-father Zeus has two well-known brothers, Hades and Poseidon. In Norse mythology, the sky-father Odin has two named brothers, Lodur-Vili and Hoenir-Ve. One of them, Hoenir, appears in several sources. Since both of these brothers played an active role in the creation of the world and of man, it is logical to assume they were known entities and not mere poetic creations.
Rydberg makes a very insightful observation. There are three sons of Borr — Odin, Hoenir, and Lodur — and there are three classes of divine beings: Aesir, Vanir, and Alfar. Since Odin founded the Aesir, it is logical to suppose that Odin's brothers founded the other two divine clans: the Vanir and the Alfar.
"Whence came the clans of the Vans and the Elves? It should not have escaped the notice of the mythologists that the Teutonic theogony, as far as it is known, mentions only two progenitors of the mythological races — Ymir and Buri. From Ymir develop the two very different races of giants, the offspring of his arms and that of his feet — in other words, the noble race to which the norns, Mimir and Bestla belong, and the ignoble, which begins with Þrúðgelmir. Buri gives birth to Burr (Bor), and the latter has three sons — Óðinn, Véi (Vé), and Vili (Vilir). Unless Buri had more sons, the Van- and Elf-clans have no other theogonic source than the same as the Asa-clan, namely, Burr. That the hierologists of the Teutonic mythology did not leave the origin of these clans unexplained we are assured by the very existence of a Teutonic theogony... Vei and Vili, though brothers of Odin, are never counted among the Aesir proper, and had no abode in Asgard. It is manifest that Odin himself with his sons founds the Asa-race, that, in other words, he is a clan-founder in which this race has its chieftain, and that his brothers, for this very reason, could not be included in his clan. There is every reason to assume that they, like him, were clan-founders; and as we find besides the Asa-clan two other races of gods, this of itself makes it probable that Odin's two brothers were their progenitors and clan-chieftains." — Viktor Rydberg
Lodur the Renegade
Rydberg equates Lodur with Mundilfori, the father of Sol and Mani, and the original operator of the world-mill at the bottom of the sea. Additional research into the material — led by Carla O'Harris — suggests that Odin's brother Lodur was a renegade god. He craved power and overstepped his limits. He is the founder of the elf-clan. He is the father of Heimdall, Sol, and Mani. He is identical with Mundilfori, the original master of the world-mill. He may also be identical with Surt. In this case, he was Mimir's first apprentice and helped him create the elves and the dwarves (before the creation of man). Through pride, Lodur overstepped his authority and was driven into exile with a band of dwarves, led by Fjalar-Mjotvitnir. Fjalar is the same being known as the giant Utgard-Loki in Snorri's Edda. Fjalar is Gunnlöð's father, and craves the mead in Mimir's well — the mead of poetic inspiration — which was lost to his clan when Lodur-Surt fell out with Mimir.
Although not fully established that Surt and Lodur are identical, it is clear that Surt was an early apprentice of Mimir's and that they had some sort of falling out — probably over the mead, since his clan later attempts to steal it — and became bitter enemies. If Surt is not identical to Lodur, then Lodur probably fell under the influence of Surt at some point. The evidence is too fragmentary to draw many firm conclusions. But the lines of argument converge toward a Lodur who was far more than a poetic cipher.
Colophon
Written by William P. Reaves and posted to alt.religion.asatru in May 2007. Reaves was one of the most active scholarly contributors to the group throughout the 2000s, producing numerous essays on Eddic mythology, the comparative method, and the interpretation of Old Norse sources. This essay applies Viktor Rydberg's nineteenth-century comparative framework — and additional research by Carla O'Harris — to the question of Odin's brothers and their multiple names. The argument that Vili/Ve and Hoenir/Lodur are identical figures remains a live scholarly debate; Reaves represents the position that the sources, read carefully, support their identification.
Original Message-ID: [email protected]
Preserved from the Usenet archive for the Good Work Library by the New Tianmu Anglican Church, 2026.
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